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meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

“Women who love themselves are threatening; but men who love real women, more so.”
― Naomi Wolf, The Beauty Myth
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norman
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meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby norman » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:40 am

I've been banging my head against an issue that doesn't seem to be going away any time soon.

It's about females sharing in the development of the human story as equals, never mind as bloody godesses of the new age. It may well turn out that a big swing from male domination to a female domination is the right way ahead, but, until we sort this bloody niggle out, I'm pretty sure none of us are going anywhere soon.

Here's a synopsis to consider:

.......This dependence of the female and the child on the male causes "psychosexual distortions in the human personality", distortions that were described by Sigmund Freud. Firestone describes Freudianism as a "misguided feminism", since she sees the only real difference between Freud's analysis and that of the radical feminists as being that Freud and his followers accept the social context in which sexual repression develops as immutable. Freud demonstrated that the source of repression and sex-class distinctions is the inherently unequal power relationship in the biological family: women and children are alike oppressed by the more powerful father. The young boy identifies first with the mother, whose oppression he shares, but soon switches his identification to the father, whose power he fears but will someday inherit. In the process he accedes to the incest taboo and the strict separation of sexuality and emotion which this requires, and which is the psychological foundation of political and ideological oppression. While the young girl also envies the father's power, she learns that she cannot inherit it and can only share in it indirectly, by currying favor with the dominant male.....


The niggle point I'm concerned about with this is that it seems very few females can differentiate, yet, between this quoted scenario, and the greater human scenario. Male domination, in as much as it's still a real issue, is 'nothing' compared to the main domination issue we need to be putting all our shoulders together to deal with, even with a unision of 1, 2, 3, heave hoe.
Last edited by norman on Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby dianna » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:21 pm

“In the beginning…God was a woman. Do you remember?”

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"When we remember that “in the beginning…God was a woman,” we can no longer hear or read the Genesis story as an innocent but flawed attempt on the part of “early man” to understand “his” origins. We are forced to see the story as a part of a widespread rewriting of history that dethroned the Goddesses and the understanding of matrifocal cultures that female creativity and the female body are the origin of many things good and beautiful."

http://feminismandreligion.com/2012/02/20/remembering-merlin-stone-1931-2011-by-carol-p-christ-2/


When God Was a Woman is the U.S. title of a 1976 book by sculptor and art historian Merlin Stone. It was published earlier in the United Kingdom as The Paradise Papers: The Suppression of Women's Rites. It has been translated into French as Quand Dieu était femme (SCE-Services Complets d'Edition, Québec, Canada) in 1978, into Dutch as Eens was God als Vrouw belichaamd - De onderdrukking van de riten van de vrouw in 1979, into German as Als Gott eine Frau war in 1989 and into Italian as "Quando Dio era una donna" in 2011. Stone spent approximately ten years engaged in research of the lesser-known, sometimes hidden depictions of the Sacred Feminine, from European and Middle Eastern societies, in preparation to complete this work. In the book, she describes these archetypal reflections of women as leaders, sacred entities and benevolent matriarchs, and also weaves them into a larger picture of how our modern societies grew to the present imbalanced state.

Possibly the most controversial/debated claim in the book is Stones' interpretation of how peaceful, benevolent matriarchal society and Goddess-reverent traditions (including Ancient Egypt) were attacked, undermined and ultimately destroyed almost completely, by the ancient tribes including Hebrews and later the early Christians. To do this they attempted to destroy any visible symbol of the sacred feminine- including artwork, sculpture, weavings and literature. The reason being that they wanted the Sacred Masculine to become the dominant power, and rule over women and Goddess energies. According to Stone, the Torah or Old Testament was in many ways a male attempt to re-write the story of human society, changing feminine symbolism to masculine.

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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Old Wolf » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:42 pm

Male domination stems from sexual repression and the expression of that within society. There's a fundamental difference between men and women, men need sex and women don't. If a man doesn't have some sort of sexual release, there's a sexual release anyway. AFAIK women don't have spontaneous orgasms.

Way back at the dawn of time at our homonid origins, the man initiated the sexual act. When he "needed" sex he would find a willing partner. The women understood this natural need of the men and either consented or not. Usually they consented. Sex wasn't some sort of bargaining chip or tool for dominance. There was no sales pitch, search or convincing, just willing partners and the joy of sexual congress that wasn't hidden. It was still private (out of respect to those not having sex), but it was openly shared and with open hearted joy we rarely find in modern society.

Somewhere in history, women realised that this "need" of men could be used as a tool for control. If they denied men's needs, then the men could be controlled by way of their biology. Genius really. Or at least genius until men's sexual needs were repressed too commonly and on too wide a scale and the men decided to use force to control the women. As such things swung from one imbalance to another imbalance. Male force has softened over the years but we still live in a patriarchal society. Feminism and new age try to teach women to try to swing society back to the opposite matriarchal structure, still a structure of imbalance.

In the meantime women are paraded in society as the archetypal "whore" where men's needs are used to attract attention for the growth of narcissistic disorders, companies, money or control. Men's lives and minds are often dominated by this raging need to seek more sex or even just to prove their masculinity to others by fulfilling their sexual needs. We can even see how the lack of fulfillment leads to a desire for abuse against women and other less obvious sexual perversions. All of this focus is upon the physical form, the sexual object of women. It's common to hear men talk about "those titties" or "that arse" .. not "her titties" or "her arse". This "that" and "those" terminology is blatant objectification of the female form, thereby devaluing the true merits and beauty of womanhood or femininity. Now society is even attempting to beautify the male form, to feminise men as objects of desire .. buff, tanned, covered in makeup and scoring their own "hot or not" narcissistic low self esteem ratings.

We all have a part to play, neither sex is entirely to blame. Recognising when we're objectifying people and not valuing them for their true merits. When we're not recognising our abilities in relation to our own faculties but rather seeking attention as objects of desire. Failing to share our loving care and (perhaps even) our bodies freely enough because society, the church or group thinking blames and judges us. Not exploring our own creative abilities and thereby wallowing in low self esteem needing external reinforcement to substitute for our own lack of self understanding.

The war of the sexes could never end with a victor, only a mutually agreed peace.

Kindly.

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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Christine » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:51 pm

Thank you, thank you and thank you all! Wow, buzzed to have this topic broached. Was about to do so myself.

I am not going to answer just yet as I am reading some misconceptions, ie: from both sides, male and fe-male.

I am literally getting shivers on how to talk about this for it is clear as the night sky is full of stars that we have been had, fooled, convinced and used through our sexual energies. This for me is the new frontier.

Also the last stronghold of the predator. Beware, it may get testy. I think those here are up for the test.

She takes a deep breath.
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby dianna » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:39 pm

Old Wolf wrote:There's a fundamental difference between men and women, men need sex and women don't. ... Way back at the dawn of time at our homonid origins, the man initiated the sexual act. When he "needed" sex he would find a willing partner. ... Somewhere in history, women realised that this "need" of men could be used as a tool for control.



Yikes! and LOL, you really are an "old wolf" ... how cute. Really? ... women don't really need sex ... we just used it as a control tool ... and it changed the world!! LOL and again LOL ... Further, I know your heart is in the right place with these misguided statements or I actually would be offended ... sweetheart, please rethink this and maybe even have a go at the book I suggested in my above post. wow.

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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Naga_Fireball » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:41 am

Young women are sometimes brought up to see sex as a tool, but older women do have a genuine need; also "horny teen" is true as well & applies to both genders.

Wow @ misconception that men are the sole predator/pursuer lol
Brotherhood falls asunder at the touch of fire!
He finds his fellow guilty of a skin
Not coloured like his own, and having power
To enforce the wrong, for such a worthy cause
Dooms and devotes him as his lawful prey.
~William Cowper

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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Old Wolf » Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:19 am

dianna wrote:Yikes! and LOL, you really are an "old wolf" ... how cute. Really? ... women don't really need sex ... we just used it as a control tool ... and it changed the world!! LOL and again LOL ... Further, I know your heart is in the right place with these misguided statements or I actually would be offended ... sweetheart, please rethink this and maybe even have a go at the book I suggested in my above post. wow.


You've read what you wanted to read, not what was written. I knew that it would be confronting but it wasn't my intention to insult nor denigrate anybody. I'm actually looking things straight in the face without assigning blame. If we're not honest about the realities then the solutions would only treat the symptoms.

Kindly.

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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby norman » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:23 pm

When I started this thread I had more the intention of talking about the organic 'families' aspect of sex than the social 'mating game' aspect, but I suppose, now, that was a tad naive of me.

It's obviously a topic that needs a lot of discussion so whatever direction this thread goes in will be worthwhile, I guess.
"The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy." -- Charles de Montesquieu

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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Christine » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:10 pm

She smiles ...

You see already there is the age old problem of forgetting to listen and simply accepting... words, words, words, they always get in the way.

Old Wolf, I actually laughed that you wrote women don't need sex, maybe you can try to say what you really meant to say. And yes, I too know your heart is in the "right" place. She continues. The right place indicates there can be a wrong place. Um? She ponders.

See, we have a problem here.

As far as Merlin Stone, When God was a Woman, the bible of the esoteric feminist movement back in the day. Powerful, necessary and yet it also made a divide. She recalls being just a few years younger than her female mentors and questioning this book too. I loved reading it and rejoiced that the feminine story was being uncovered, yet feels, intuits into gnowing that we can go further in our uncovering of Truth.

norman, don't even get me started on Freud, the fatherly-priestly architect of modern psychology, who fractured the human psyche into thousands of pieces and then put it back together according to his distorted one. Not that much can't be learned there... just penis envy? Really? lol The aspect of Mother and male child however is where I am drawn to explore, something happen there, deep down in the human psyche, something that Freud himself suffers from.

Lets see where this goes, in the spirit of adventure and dis-cover-y.

To look things straight in the face beyond blame is a darn good start, then we watch how we justify and defend positions. Being honest about realities (all subjective) requires IMHO a deeper dive. Be ruthless with your Self, the confront is within.

What I see is a beginning and I see the potential for uncovering, bringing up from the dark one of the greatest lies ever told. Do I Know yet? No. Do I intuit this? Yes, very strongly. The answers seem to lie between the words, down the middle path, somewhere out beyond the fields of right and wrong.

She asks your indulgence that she can now but speak in meta-phor.

... Rumi says:

Lo, I am with you always.

You promised that, and when

I realized it was true,

my soul flared up.

Any unhappiness comes from forgetting.

Remember and be back

with the Friend.


Old Wolf wrote:
dianna wrote:Yikes! and LOL, you really are an "old wolf" ... how cute. Really? ... women don't really need sex ... we just used it as a control tool ... and it changed the world!! LOL and again LOL ... Further, I know your heart is in the right place with these misguided statements or I actually would be offended ... sweetheart, please rethink this and maybe even have a go at the book I suggested in my above post. wow.


You've read what you wanted to read, not what was written. I knew that it would be confronting but it wasn't my intention to insult nor denigrate anybody. I'm actually looking things straight in the face without assigning blame. If we're not honest about the realities then the solutions would only treat the symptoms.

Kindly.
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby norman » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:33 pm

Freud made the "sweeping assumption" into a religion that even his opponents adhere to.

We are bogged down in sweeping assumptions in everything from spirtuality to cancer.

In a way, Freudianism did to the Enlightenment what the Charles Manson case did to flower Power.
"The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy." -- Charles de Montesquieu


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