meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

“Women who love themselves are threatening; but men who love real women, more so.”
― Naomi Wolf, The Beauty Myth
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Post by Old Wolf »

Christine wrote:Old Wolf, I actually laughed that you wrote women don't need sex, maybe you can try to say what you really meant to say.
Exactly that. Everyone wants sex, has physical "desires" towards it and I've no doubt that both sexes have those same desires and the intensity and impact of those desires are significant and varied. But only men (generally speaking) experience spontaneous ejaculation. That's all I meant, men have a physical need the drives them, even if their desires are blunted they still experience sexual release. I could be right or wrong, possibly other men are different to me?

That's neither here nor there. It's like standing at the edge of the forest having a discussion about whether we should walk left or right around the first tree. Sex is sex is sex, it's just a mechanic in this much larger picture. Sex is a confronting thing to discuss, and we've been mentally entrained to find it confronting. So to change speeds, I'll go back to the synopsis. As a preface, I haven't studied Freud:
This dependence of the female and the child on the male causes "psychosexual distortions in the human personality", distortions that were described by Sigmund Freud.
This comes back to the need for survival and the use of relationship to attain basic needs. The distortion of interpersonal relationships based on external factors.
Freud demonstrated that the source of repression and sex-class distinctions is the inherently unequal power relationship in the biological family: women and children are alike oppressed by the more powerful father
Again directly relating to the "male as the provider" figure. The attitude assumes that the "father" is the sole provider and is reflective of the era when Freud lived.
The young boy identifies first with the mother, whose oppression he shares, but soon switches his identification to the father, whose power he fears but will someday inherit. In the process he accedes to the incest taboo and the strict separation of sexuality and emotion which this requires
This sounds like a problem Freud experienced in his own life (or perhaps observed in some cases) and projected this as a fundamental reality. No doubt this happens but he's ignoring the emotional aspects. It's perfectly natural for children to "love" their mothers and this love is not sexual. Love is emotional and a child / mother relationship is an energetic connection between the hearts of the two. Children know this, adults forget.
While the young girl also envies the father's power, she learns that she cannot inherit it and can only share in it indirectly, by currying favor with the dominant male
There's a definite distortion that's been continuing for many years. Girls / Women have been subtly encouraged to find a male to provide for them. The partnership is definitely not a wrong thing but it's the wanton subservience and the wrongful relationship dynamics that need to be rectified. Boys in the world shouldn't expect their female partner to act as a substitute for their mother and girls shouldn't be fighting their male partners for dominance in the relationship.

Dominance and subservience really aren't constructive ways to relate. Competing for position, power or control isn't constructive nor does it build on the loving trust in relationships, regardless of the nature of those relationships.
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Post by Naga_Fireball »

OK so plants produce their own food each day, much as a man experiences a morning erection etc.

Animals however generally do not produce their own food. It must be hunted, gathered, and/or stored.

Are we going to argue over whether the need of plants for food is lesser or greater than the need of animals for food, due to how it is produced?

Other than that bit I find your thoughts very interesting on this subject, OW.
Brotherhood falls asunder at the touch of fire!
He finds his fellow guilty of a skin
Not coloured like his own, and having power
To enforce the wrong, for such a worthy cause
Dooms and devotes him as his lawful prey.
~William Cowper
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Post by Old Wolf »

Naga_Fireball wrote:Are we going to argue
I'd hoped not but I'm terribly, terribly good at it.
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Post by Pluto's Child »

Sigmund Freud
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The only time that name should come up in intelligent conversation is if the subject is about deranged fools & how they are used by the mainstream to justify nonsense IMHO.

If you can know the tree by looking at the fruit, look at his daughter, what a sorry tale .....


About the whole female / male dominance thing, the problem word is surely "dominance" ?

There is a mindset & paradigm going on behind this that is what needs looking at & seriously dealing with, the whole predatory psychopath as ruler scenario, and it's certainly not going to go away by giving power to a female (like either sex has any more of a natural abundance of wisdom & empathy just by virtue of their genitals lol), simple proof of this is Hilary Clinton, she makes Bill (and most men come to think of it) look like a rank amateurs when it comes to corruption, womanising & killing people.
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Dudes, what the f*ck is up with testosterone?

Post by Christine »

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The Divine Masculine

Time for some serious digging into this, yes I am being purposely pro-vo-cative. Answers come when we dare to ask the rite questions.

Ok, here she goes again. I Thought she would calm down but there is no time left for standing down or going back, we are in a passage and all eyes are needed on deck.

Someone must climb up in the crow’s nest, what do you see?

Lords! What fear is this, the fear of being wrong? So useless.

What are you gentlemen doing with your testosterone, with your sacred semen? From my point of view it seems you don’t even know what it is for.

Her, she stands by each of your sides, the door and the womb. Can you unlock this mystery? She knows some have tried. Power resides inside.

What I see in your words, in your acts is avoidance and deep down inside you are still trying to control her, still trying to outsmart her, still trying to con-text her into something you can logically define.

So where is your staff, you are the staff right? Where is the sword of YOUR Truth, the one you bring up from inside? I don’t see it hardly ever and when I do with one small move you collapse, what the f*ck is up with that?

See.

Prove me wrong, ok. In the voice of Her I ask, bring up the Divine Masculine, quit playing around. Let's get Real.

Something happened, dredge it up … no Freudian slip, no analytical drip, what do you feel? There is a very deep rift and it wasn’t always that way.

Fear? What?

I ask because if we don’t get outside the box, if we don’t bring up from within ourselves the Truth, if we can’t honestly stand in our Self, if we don’t make a stand, then what?

Fierceness in Love, fierce for freedom.

Hearts on fire… Courage, the age of the Heart.
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Post by Christine »

Oh how did I leave out the biggest "man thought" of all ... I have to FIX her. I don't say any of this other than asking for close examination of where these "ideas" come from. I have seen the greatest frustrations arise from this "idea". Inherent in it is that something needs fixing... and darn it all any way if I don't have a growing gnowing that She knows exactly what she is about.

And to be fair, far too many women allow men to "fix" them and that turns to "need" them. Vicious cycle.


Full Definition of fix

transitive verb
a : to make firm, stable, or stationary b : to give a permanent or final form to: as (1) : to change into a stable compound or available form <bacteria that fix nitrogen> (2) : to kill, harden, and preserve for microscopic study (3) : to make the image of (a photographic film) permanent by removing unused salts c : affix, attach
a : to hold or direct steadily <fixes his eyes on the horizon> b : to capture the attention of <fixed her with a stare>
a : to set or place definitely : establish b : to make an accurate determination of : discover <fixing our location on the chart> c : assign <fix the blame>
: to set in order : adjust
: to get ready : prepare <fix lunch>
a : repair, mend <fix the clock> b : restore, cure <the doctor fixed him up> c : spay, castrate
a : to get even with b : to influence the actions, outcome, or effect of by improper or illegal methods <the race had been fixed>

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Re: Dudes, what the f*uck is up with testosterone?

Post by Old Wolf »

Christine wrote:Lords! What fear is this, the fear of being wrong? So useless.
This I know, but knowing and understanding are two different things.
Christine wrote:What I see in your words, in your acts is avoidance and deep down inside you are still trying to control her, still trying to outsmart her, still trying to con-text her into something you can logically define.
To own, to control .. definitely a very strong natural desire toward the feminine. Yet it doesn't come from the desire for self satisfaction, it's quite the opposite. It's like the man in me wants to use this drive, use this to bring out the woman from the girl. That's been misrecognised by me as my personal need, I think that's wrong.
Christine wrote:So where is your staff, you are the staff right? Where is the sword of YOUR Truth, the one you bring up from inside? I don’t see it hardly ever and when I do with one small move you collapse, what the f*ck is up with that?
The world is a self esteem reduction machine. It's a difficult tightrope to walk, informing without insulting, confronting without arguing. It's also difficult to come to understanding when ego is involved. This I know well.
Christine wrote:Something happened, dredge it up … no Freudian slip, no analytical drip, what do you feel? There is a very deep rift and it wasn’t always that way.
Abandoned and angry about it. Wanting to dominate women is a natural desire but to what end? Not this social structure I'm sure. Am I expecting a response to my desire to dominate? I do, that's my masculinity. Do I expect women to grovel at my feet or answer to me? That's not what I want, even if my mind gets involved and distorts my real desires. No, I'm looking for something. I'm looking for some sort of honest heartfelt response.

What nature of response? I don't know and I think that's because I've never seen it before.

The world is imbalanced and redressing that isn't undoing what's been done. It's doing something more .. you don't heal by cutting out the wound! What we're missing in the world is true feminine expression.
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Post by Pris »

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I thought I'd pop in here. From a gamine point-of-view, I've never really comprehended what all the fuss is about. In other words, it's quite impossible for me to take a 'side' in this.
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Post by dianna »

Eros Unredeemed
Daniel Pinchbeck
http://www.pinchbeck.io/essays-and-arti ... h-may-2012


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I start to re-read Dieter Duhm’s Eros Unredeemed again, and once again, it is like waking from sleep to recognize the true idiocy of our current situation when it comes to love, sex, and relationships. According to Duhm, our incapacity to bring our full consciousness and analytic intellect to this area imminently threatens our species and the biosphere with apocalyptic ruin — and I agree with him. In New York City, full of so many incredibly brilliant and beautiful people, I feel like I am walking through a desert — a wasteland of love, abandoned, forfeited, of puppets allowing themselves to be pulled on invisible strings… or as Duhm’s title puts it so aptly, unredeemed Eros.

As Duhm writes, “The progressive-dynamic sports shoe generation of today adorns itself with super-electronics and galactic hair styles, but in their hearts they still dream the same fairytale dreams of our grannies. The cars and the changes in fashion have become faster, but serious reflection on matters of love has not. If today we want to create a transition from a period of violence to a new era of structural non-violence then we have to totally change our priorities. The same love and attention, the same conscientiousness and reliability, the same force of will and intelligence with which humans have thus far used to destroy each other must now be used to promote sexual love. We can no longer confront the omnipotence of war with white doves and pious songs. Our latent fascination with war and destruction is too great, too sincere and too profound, whereas our ideas and images of peace have so far been much too weak, immature and half-hearted. Not until we have found something even much greater and more fascinating than warfare and power play will we be able to believe in the possibility of overcoming war on a global scale, and this something could well be sensual love based on friendship and solidarity and on a sincere, powerful, and erotic relationship between the sexes, in short, a true reunion of man and woman. The only kind of will power and intelligence which can enable us to thoroughly and permanently clear out the ancient martial nooks and crannies of the soul is one which is capable of creating the basic structures of a love-life without fear and violence. Human beings, who have sent space ships into outer space, will also be able to solve the problem of unredeemed Eros if they fully dedicate themselves to this task with all their will power and intelligence.”

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The “free love” or “sexual liberation” of the 60s was not a failure, but an experiment that remains incomplete. Just as humanity was not up to the task, in that epoch, of reckoning with the psychedelic experience and integrating the psychic and visionary aspects of our being into the repressive social structure — the system we have inherited, which is now obviously breaking down — we have not been capable of fully comprehending or integrating what the emancipation of Eros means in terms of new social forms and also a new living experience of the Divine. “The sexual revolution, which is necessary for creating a humane world, can only take place if it is linked to an equally indispensable spiritual revolution,” Duhm writes. We are still sleepwalking: unable to confront or realize what is directly before us — putting it off to a “later” or an “away” that remains vaguely on the periphery. Another hundred yoga sessions, another thousand therapy appointments, and perhaps we will be there…

Our cultural system spins like a hamster wheel, essentially devoid of new, original or incisive content. Artists, filmmakers, novelists pursue the same old rewards in a system based on establishing careers and making profit. The actual content that needs to be expressed is contained in the love, sexual and spiritual revolution that people still don’t want to reckon with, because it threatens the structure and ideology they have been conditioned to maintain. Art and culture have been domesticated to serve the system of ego and profit — in these arenas, also, a true realization and inner revolution is necessary for a regeneration of our world to take place.

Far more than another political revolution, which would end up with some new miasma of jealousy and power and frustration, we need, first of all, a love revolution, which is also the form of a revelation: A totally fresh and clear-eyed approach to love and Eros. “The historical double meaning of apocalypse is being fulfilled, step by step it is turning into a conscious experience of revelation. The ‘Kingdom of God on Earth,’ i.e. the sexual and spiritual power of love, can no longer be confined behind society’s masks, dogmas, and institiutions,” Duhm writes. The “revelation” comes when we bring into consciousness the patterns of the past, and then construct a new societal structure that accords with our deepest drives and impulses.

The same ideas that Duhm works through here are also discussed in another one of my favorite books, Pain, Sex, and Time by Gerald Heard — though, writing in the 1940s, Heard was not able to fully perceive that the liberation of love, sexuality and Eros was also necessary for the evolutionary potential of humanity to be realized: He thought this energy needed to be channeled through new initiatory practices. “Modern man’s incessant sexuality is not bestial: rather it is a psychic hemorrhage. He bleeds himself constantly because he fears mental apoplexy if he can find no way of releasing his huge store of nervous energy,” Heard wrote. He noted that the tremendous force of the human sexual drive — beyond anything we find in the animal kingdom — suggested a surplus of extra evolutionary energy, which we will either consciously master, or it will destroy us.

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We find our civilization has attained a tremendous mastery of techniques of war, while we have ignored love and sex, or treated it as something that we can’t fully explore with our conscious minds or approach with forethought. Sex remains something private, secret, and shrouded in darkness. “Whereas the cerebrum is applied in war technology, in love man lives and thinks out of his spinal cord,” writes Duhm. Even the everywhere evident fact that almost invariably (with very occasional exceptions) monogamous couples either break apart, or lose their spark, hasn’t compelled us to deeply consider the possibility that it is not our natural instinct in love that is wrong, but the social framework and belief system we have inherited — that we reify through our ongoing thoughts and actions — that is deeply flawed and in error. As Duhm also notes, there is no contradiction between being in a couple — finding a soul mate — and freedom in love. The contradiction only exists in our own minds — as the inheritance of patriarchy, of the “mind-forg’d manacles” which keep us from life and truth.

The lack of trust that we find throughout our “civil”-ization has its source in the failure of men and women to be truthful with each other. If your desires are in conflict with what society allows, you either express your desires and get exiled from society, or you make the best bargain you possibly can to attain some modicum of happiness and comfort, with the permanent acceptance of an underlying current of anger, bitterness, and resentment. Once you have allowed yourself to deceive yourself and the person who is theoretically closest to you, then you have created the intrinsic pattern for a society based on lies and delusion… You can then listen to the half-truths of our politicians and pundits without throwing up, because you are living in the same state of compromise. From that initial error, we collectively fail to safeguard or care for the environment as a logical consequence. After all, why would we want to protect a world that has betrayed us at its core?

“The liberation of Eros cannot succeed until we have wiped out every trace of the old idea of fidelity, which is based on the principle of the exclusion of others,” Duhm writes. “Faithfulness has nothing to do with a ban, with a vow, or with a contract. It is a concrete love relationship between two human beings. I am faithful to him because I love him. My love cannot depend on the condition that he should not go to bed with anyone else. If my partner is an attractive human specimen, then it is normal that others should desire him and that he should desire others. Should we really be expected to show our loyalty and devotion by renouncing such pleasures for the sake of another? What sort of farcical, masochistic idea is that? Faithfulness is love, but love is not renunciation. If our devotion for one another falls apart as a result of other sexual contacts, then our love was built on sand.”

The realization that the intrinsic paradigm for a planetary shift of consciousness is nothing “out there” but the internalization of a new mode of love that is shared, that flows like a river, that knows no fear, that has no need to possess or control: I believe that this is the next phase of the transformation of consciousness that needs to take place. Subconsciously I always knew this to be the case — probably you did as well — but I am grateful to Duhm (who founded the community Tamera in Portugal, which I recently visited) for bringing it out into the light of day.

He notes, “Humans will continue to butcher their environment, to destroy their fellow creatures, and vent their hatred on nature, as long as they do not achieve inner peace. And they will not find inner peace as long as they continue to rape love. … This entire worldwide process of destruction and self-destruction contains one strange component, which I have never completely understood, but which I have encountered again and again: Individuals are not even interested in freeing themselves from the system that ravages them.” Because an incredible force of historical repression and violence was exerted in this area (by the church, the colonialists, etc), our ancestors acquiesced, for purposes of survival and self-perpetuation. We have continued in the inertia of that internalized repression, because we didn’t know better.

The mass media functions as an ideological battering ram, blasting us over and over again with idealized images and visions of the monogamous couple and the nuclear family: This unit still forms the basis of the capitalist system, as theorists from Friedrich Engels to Slavoj Zizek realized. The acceptance of intrinsic dissatisfaction is part of what the system perpetuates. As we learn to accept continual discomfort and dissatisfaction at the thwarting of our instinct for love and sex as somehow “normal,” we then perpetuate this misery by accepting a world that we know is far beneath our true potential.

Nobody from outside of ourselves can integrate this realization and bring about this revolution of love, the liberation of Eros and redemption of instinct. Everything in our contemporary society continues to conspire against us: the complex of “Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll” is the mechanism used by the dominant system of patriarchal repression to distort our vitalizing impulses and channel them into areas that are easily commodified and controlled. The first step is to make what has been unmentionable and hidden into something we openly discuss and explore — then we can embody it.
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Post by Christine »

Popping in quickly to thank Old Wolf for his honesty and courage. Also to make sure that this quest has nothing to do with taking 'sides". May we find answers to one of the oldest puzzles and certainly something that plagues most of Humankind.
Pris wrote:.
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I thought I'd pop in here. From a gamine point-of-view, I've never really comprehended what all the fuss is about. In other words, it's quite impossible for me to take a 'side' in this.
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