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meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

“Women who love themselves are threatening; but men who love real women, more so.”
― Naomi Wolf, The Beauty Myth
neonblue

Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby neonblue » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:56 am

Image

Excuse my chiming-in with this image/statement above, but I saw it with amusement as some fitting irony (re this discussion) - i.e, here the apple that was given to Adam by Eve is being used in a depiction about change. But then of course - the text would better read: "People don't resist change, they resist changing themselves".

**Being grey of whisker myself (wink), with many hard won inner and outer battles with my own perceptions and patterns, towards a seasoned sense of self - earning a far steadier hand on the wheel - Old Wolf, please know that - (apart from my own thinking on matters here) I very much respect and appreciate your stance of personal resolve.

That being said: It could also be said (and is) - that it is within our most intimate relationships between a man and woman that we are steeped in our most fertile opportunity for sewing seeds of growth in self/other learning.

When a man and woman come together we/they are pivoted to participate in a Divine mirroring (of the machinations of the 'poles' of the sexes), where the Sacred Marriage of self may then be triggered to 'alchemically' or otherwise, occur. A place where something shared exists (outside of self), where both parties (who are invested) can give/take, observe and be observed in process. If this 'living' garden flourishes or dies from neglect, or is toxicity fuelled - is dependent upon whether or not, it is nurtured with self/other compassion, and watered with Love for 'it'. Or - conversely becomes out grown, sometimes strangled by neglectful weeds, or attacked by predators or host to parasites, and/or those 'in-house' stranglers - the shadow self/selves.

What courage and forbearance such coupling asks of us!

If we shy from such opportunity and succumb to the trials of Mother Natures' storms, deluges, fires and droughts without due resistance... those most fearful may remain singularly focussed, in lack of the vital enrichment that meeting, nurturing and knowing the 'other' - (male/female aspect) within and without avails to us. In effect, if we do not come to know and become our own Sun and Moon principle, we are are in danger of withering like an un-pollinated flower, lost to any self-seed'i'ng possibilities.

I also understand, that being honest and in deep conviction to connection with ourselves, is suffice (well enough) to spark our own self-real-'is'-ed union in Eden. When the importance of the awareness and balancing of the male/female within, is experientially real-i-seed, the factor of dominance as a need that (for whatever causal root), becomes not an anathema - but an automatic self-regulated, self-organising principle - free from any previous conceptions or learned societal/parental conditioning.

This small emergent torrent of words, has been a surprise expression of something I have some kind of experience of. It may not be entirely useful to the topic. But I give thanks to all the contributors to this thread, for your boldness of spirit in holding the space for such frank and essential dialogue between the sexes.

My sense is that we each have a super compass and are not born to exile from the sum of our parts. When the still-point is found (a formless space in the between), we are 'in the sweet place' and are orientated for the allowance of the surfacing of unconscious drives. Once there, we freely adjust and consciously co-join with our True selves in True Nature.

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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Christine » Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:03 pm

Old Wolf wrote:
Christine wrote:Old Wolf, fellows? ... I revisited this phrase of yours or rather it haunts and reverberates. So let me ask you why you would write that? Why do you feel you have no choice? It truly is a statement of certainty.

Once the truth is awakened within you, you can't turn back. There's no closing your eyes to the reality around you. You see what you see and nothing can change that, nobody can affect it. Ignorance is bliss and I know that I would love to be ignorant .. or be ignorant again. But I'm beyond that now.

No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.

Ergo I have no choice but to seek a level of understanding that I wouldn't choose to seek, were I able to ignore these issues (that confront me so frequently and with such voracity), just to get by.


Friend,

I hear you. May I ask what truth was awakened within you? Following the tread of the conversation am I to understand it has to do with the male-human need to dominate the female-human? What is the reality that you see around you? If you speak again of the predominate matrix view, well I think we all see that too or we wouldn't be here writing this words trying to get to the bottom of the matter.

I have found, time and time again that when we speak our truth, have it heard, heart-heard it often leads us to the next piece on the never ending journey we are on. I hear heart in Pris' words to you, maybe she sees something you aren't willing to look at. Anything that pricks me to respond in a manner that causes me to defend or justify a certain positional point of view is something I will need to examine in full. I chose love and I chose the natural world of flows and awe. I choose it daily and sometimes minute by minute in trying situations. It is where my focus goes ... not a bad place to Be.

Absolutes? I agree with Pris, in this realm of duality I have found there are no absolutes, only points of view, some are quiet compelling until we are able to see the polar opposite and then we can implode those realities with in our Self and a whole new world comes into view.

So you aren't ignorant, you can't turn back... kind sir where are you going? What means do you employ?

I am asking in all sincerity, as I said in the other sex thread... what, who, where is the Divine masculine? Is he stuck somewhere or am I missing something I don't see?

Love Unbound ...
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Naga_Fireball » Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:30 pm

Living in a male dominated society; How to Tell

Toys cost more than teachers
School Sports prepare children for the battlefield
More is spent on said sports than on Special Needs

Secondary education is "liberal" or "gay"
"Warfighters" get the best jobs
The best jobs are actually hidden from brain washed jar head alpha males

Racism is built into the operational fabric of society
Men can't explain the reasons behind our current wars but they tend to approve (as long as football isnt interrupted)

Beer is the #1 legal drug in usa , it numbs the pain of recoil or something

Any other red flags?

Oh yes, the pickup truck dragging phenomenon,
I'm sure it took a Man to think of that one too.
Brotherhood falls asunder at the touch of fire!
He finds his fellow guilty of a skin
Not coloured like his own, and having power
To enforce the wrong, for such a worthy cause
Dooms and devotes him as his lawful prey.
~William Cowper

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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Old Wolf » Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:59 am

Christine wrote:I hear you. May I ask what truth was awakened within you? Following the tread of the conversation am I to understand it has to do with the male-human need to dominate the female-human?

What I call the 'truth' is the awakening of self to the realisation of the power within the heart.

Christine wrote:I have found, time and time again that when we speak our truth, have it heard, heart-heard it often leads us to the next piece on the never ending journey we are on. I hear heart in Pris' words to you, maybe she sees something you aren't willing to look at.

I hear heart in your words and I know that you hear heart in mine, or at least some of them. So if we're all speaking from the heart then we're all seeing things from different perspectives. So how do we share our perspectives? I thought that honesty and a dose of reality might go a long way. So I'll try again.

We live in a patriarchal society:

Patriarchal :- characteristic of an entity, family, church, etc., controlled by men:

This 'control' is something I've noticed as an aspect of myself. This will to 'dominate' or 'control' women, quite separate from any external influence. It's obviously a distortion of what's natural (ie. a 'problem') and just as obviously, a societal problem (ie. The "world" is a patriarchy not "I" am a patriarchy). That doesn't mean that it can't be dealt with by me. indeed, it's the only way for me to deal with it .. I can't change the "world" I can only change "I". Yet in order to deal with it, I must understand the cause so that I'm not simply treating the symptoms. ie. "seeking equal rights in the workplace" or "marriage equality" are dealing with symptoms and not cause. So what is the cause? That's what I'm proffering, a suggestion as to the cause of this issue both in myself and in the greater world. I'm suggesting that the problem isn't as one sided as it seems and nor can the solution be.

The responses which I've received are suggesting that this is my personal problem and isn't widely spread. No doubt everyone is sharing great care for me and that is well appreciated (I'm not good at being grateful but I'm working on it). Yet even with great care, looking at the massively patriarchal system all around us (see Naga's funny post on this), suggesting that "I" am the problem is unfortunate ignorance. This is perhaps why this imbalance has not been addressed before, it's terribly difficult for us to admit to ourselves that we would wilfully wish it to be someone else's problem.

Do I have an internal representation of this system of control within myself? Oh yes. Can anyone fix this for me? Only myself.

Does anyone else have an internal representation of this system of control within themselves? So far, nobody. My strongest suspicion, feeling and rational analysis indicates that this is not only likely to be the case, but very nearly must be the case else the world wouldn't be as imbalanced as it currently is.

Hopefully that post isn't too confronting.

Kindly.

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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Christine » Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:49 pm

Dear Old Wolf,

She smiles internally, recognizing in this conversation one of "our" internal and seemingly eternal struggles, to truly listen and to be heard.

Not to mention speaking our "truth" with enough clarity so we can be, at least partially, assured that our words are interpreted correctly. What I am observing in your writing is that you are basically saying the same thing that Pris, Naga, neonblue and myself have been saying, though it brings up once again the question; where is the gap in male/ female communication?

Not to mention what happens when a couple have a sexual relationship. (Hi norman, you have been awfully quiet on the subject you initiated. ;))

Necessary for my survival I have become a careful observer of self and other. Listening deeply to what is not said as much as what is said. What I hear in your words, allow that what I am about to say is not personal. As you have pointed out the solution is not outside but an inside job. And because you are being so honest and transparent I feel I can make an attempt to elucidate what I am hearing beneath your words.

The question remains, what is it that drives a male's need to dominate and I will conversely say the female's need to hold and contain? There has to be a corresponding reaction for this dynamic to exist, of course there does. In a further attempt to strip off layers it is obvious to myself that the driving force within me has been to have, to hold (dominate?) a male. This came from my own sense of lack, ie: need. I have long ago thrown out the Patriarchy as a model from which to work, the issue lays much deeper in the psyche, the outward manifestations are the symptoms as you so astutely point out.

We are back to choice, it is within us to choose. As I hear you, there is a discomfort with your self, a knowing that there are installed and conditioned reactions, things you know aren't befitting a heart-centered man. So there exists an internal struggle, good on you kind sir. This awareness is the necessary and often painful realization that the facade of ego identity with external realities will ultimately leave a dissatisfaction that seeks to fulfill itself in another.

Going deeper now I hear you asking for something you know is there but can't quite reach. You are not alone in this, it seems to be a hallmark of the human condition. The deepest layer I have found of this fear is an underpinning sense of abandonment and the corresponding resentment of being abandoned, like we were thrown from the womb and unconsciously want to go back there, to the state of being encompassed and totally loved by the Mother. All our needs met.

She allows herself the freedom of exploration, unfettered.

Could it be that there is a rebellion and resentment of the Mother, not only in men but in women too? In men it would manifest differently. For obviously the female will grow up to be mother, as she matures she can identify with this herself. A male does not have this advantage so I what I am driving at is thus; he is in rebellion and resentment and at some very deep levels even hatred. He desires again and again to return to this state of warm embryonic love, falling into a momentary blissful state with a female partner the complexities grow. I will risk saying that most men I have known in relationship were dealing with "mother" through their relationship with me. That I have a corresponding mother aspect goes without saying. Female body.

Mother-Mater-Matter, she extends the thought out further to encompass all bodies and our Earthly Mother. Every relation-ship is a reflection of a subsequent action on the grander scale. She knows when one realizes this all actions will be in accord and harmony.

As I have written elsewhere to reveal is to heal. This requires that each and every individual find the courage to delve into their own well of long forgotten (purposely driven away) feelings and memory. I assure you that there is access if you choose to dive.

What I have steadfastly and at the cost of all else been working on is delving this occulted terrain. Knowledge is power.

It isn't easy to discard worn out models and templates, they are finely woven into our genetic memory and craftily reinforced by societal manipulations that seek to consume.

So here one sits with self and asking the right questions knows that the only way out is through.

She cultivates within her self the fullness of forging the male that is within her. She loves him unconditionally. She endeavors to seek not outside but within and she must choose this daily until the task is complete. Now she is complete enough, testing still ... She can Be Mother, daughter, child, lover, friend. In love that knows no bounds.

Observations of the inner self in relationship to other allows her the knowing that when male and female come together in true unconditional love, when the male has separated himself fully from Mother and returns her love unconditionally then WE, the greater US will find that there isn't a thing we can't do.

With deep gratitude. Love unbound, fierce and free

Christine


Old Wolf wrote:
Christine wrote:I hear you. May I ask what truth was awakened within you? Following the tread of the conversation am I to understand it has to do with the male-human need to dominate the female-human?

What I call the 'truth' is the awakening of self to the realisation of the power within the heart.

Christine wrote:I have found, time and time again that when we speak our truth, have it heard, heart-heard it often leads us to the next piece on the never ending journey we are on. I hear heart in Pris' words to you, maybe she sees something you aren't willing to look at.

I hear heart in your words and I know that you hear heart in mine, or at least some of them. So if we're all speaking from the heart then we're all seeing things from different perspectives. So how do we share our perspectives? I thought that honesty and a dose of reality might go a long way. So I'll try again.

We live in a patriarchal society:

Patriarchal :- characteristic of an entity, family, church, etc., controlled by men:

This 'control' is something I've noticed as an aspect of myself. This will to 'dominate' or 'control' women, quite separate from any external influence. It's obviously a distortion of what's natural (ie. a 'problem') and just as obviously, a societal problem (ie. The "world" is a patriarchy not "I" am a patriarchy). That doesn't mean that it can't be dealt with by me. indeed, it's the only way for me to deal with it .. I can't change the "world" I can only change "I". Yet in order to deal with it, I must understand the cause so that I'm not simply treating the symptoms. ie. "seeking equal rights in the workplace" or "marriage equality" are dealing with symptoms and not cause. So what is the cause? That's what I'm proffering, a suggestion as to the cause of this issue both in myself and in the greater world. I'm suggesting that the problem isn't as one sided as it seems and nor can the solution be.

The responses which I've received are suggesting that this is my personal problem and isn't widely spread. No doubt everyone is sharing great care for me and that is well appreciated (I'm not good at being grateful but I'm working on it). Yet even with great care, looking at the massively patriarchal system all around us (see Naga's funny post on this), suggesting that "I" am the problem is unfortunate ignorance. This is perhaps why this imbalance has not been addressed before, it's terribly difficult for us to admit to ourselves that we would wilfully wish it to be someone else's problem.

Do I have an internal representation of this system of control within myself? Oh yes. Can anyone fix this for me? Only myself.

Does anyone else have an internal representation of this system of control within themselves? So far, nobody. My strongest suspicion, feeling and rational analysis indicates that this is not only likely to be the case, but very nearly must be the case else the world wouldn't be as imbalanced as it currently is.

Hopefully that post isn't too confronting.

Kindly.
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Naga_Fireball » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:25 pm

(I didn't mean to be too incendiary with my last ill thought post. Ty for the smiles lol)
Brotherhood falls asunder at the touch of fire!
He finds his fellow guilty of a skin
Not coloured like his own, and having power
To enforce the wrong, for such a worthy cause
Dooms and devotes him as his lawful prey.
~William Cowper

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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Old Wolf » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:54 am

Christine wrote:Could it be that there is a rebellion and resentment of the Mother, not only in men but in women too? In men it would manifest differently. For obviously the female will grow up to be mother, as she matures she can identify with this herself. A male does not have this advantage so I what I am driving at is thus; he is in rebellion and resentment and at some very deep levels even hatred. He desires again and again to return to this state of warm embryonic love, falling into a momentary blissful state with a female partner the complexities grow. I will risk saying that most men I have known in relationship were dealing with "mother" through their relationship with me. That I have a corresponding mother aspect goes without saying. Female body.

You're right about this, where it's going I don't know but in myself this isn't the driving force of domination / control. But I'll share my personal experiences with this.

Being an open hearted person, the love of my mother is something that I missed as I gradually lost it. Certainly I spent a good deal of time trying to substitute in women for this 'mother' figure that I so missed. Having said that, it's long behind me. It somewhat saddens me that this is nearly gone now but it's still not completely gone, my mother still lives and I know that she will always love me. As I age the roles reverse and I supply my mother with that love that she now so misses, that unconditional love of the child that supports and in many ways defines the "mother". I don't resent this.

Into that space needs be the self love and self acceptance that's lacking in me, others probably understand and embody this instinctively. It's not impossible to recognise and create this but it takes time.

Having said that, it's not the be all and end all of human relationships but just a starting platform from where a relationship can be built. Within the ability to relate with self love is the shared concept of the creation of a space of love owned by neither party. I've recognised how powerful this space can be and often wonder if this is the true conception? That the creation of this shared space is the foundational blueprint for the creation of a fully formed additional life, the real child is the energy shared and the physical incarnation is just the reflection of the power of that energy.

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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Pris » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:03 am

Pris wrote:
Old Wolf wrote:Once the truth is awakened within you, you can't turn back. There's no closing your eyes to the reality around you. You see what you see and nothing can change that, nobody can affect it. Ignorance is bliss and I know that I would love to be ignorant .. or be ignorant again. But I'm beyond that now.

No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.

Ergo I have no choice but to seek a level of understanding that I wouldn't choose to seek, were I able to ignore these issues (that confront me so frequently and with such voracity), just to get by.


I hear absolutes... generalizing, justifying... There is always evolving, change.

I know I cannot be certain of anything and yet I often pretend to be certain of everything. One moment I'm standing firm, the next my foundation is crumbling beneath me. Anger, frustration, annoyance... This happens to me more and more. It is a ferocious dynamic caused by my resistance to a deeper knowing. The feeling is like being stripped, shredded on the inside, intensely painful... exposing my deepest fears... vulnerability, helplessness, shame...

Facing these fears, learning to forgive and love myself, releasing my pain... is perhaps the greatest gift I can give myself. Without fear, I am able to place the 'reality' I see around me beyond my need to control it.

This is a 'work-in-progress'.
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Old Wolf wrote:
Pris wrote:I hear absolutes... generalizing, justifying... There is always evolving, change.

You're quite within your rights to hear whatever you wish to hear. There's nothing I can nor would do about it nor do I feel the need to convince you of anything about me.

Kindly.


Did I only hear what I wished to hear?

Generalizing/absolutes: Once the truth is awakened within you...
Justifying: you can't turn back.
Absolutes: There's no closing your eyes to the reality around you. You see what you see and nothing can change that, nobody can affect it.
Generalizing/absolutes: Ignorance is bliss...
Justifying: and I know that I would love to be ignorant .. or be ignorant again. But I'm beyond that now.

Generalizing/absolutes: No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.

Justifying: Ergo I have no choice but to seek a level of understanding that I wouldn't choose to seek, were I able to ignore these issues (that confront me so frequently and with such voracity), just to get by.


How about you? Do you hear only what you wish to hear? You focused on just two sentences in my rather lengthy and, if I may say so, reasonably well thought out and sensitive comment. It was my wholehearted attempt at... bridging.
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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Pris » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:46 am

Naga_Fireball wrote:Living in a male dominated society; How to Tell

Toys cost more than teachers
School Sports prepare children for the battlefield
More is spent on said sports than on Special Needs

Secondary education is "liberal" or "gay"
"Warfighters" get the best jobs
The best jobs are actually hidden from brain washed jar head alpha males

Racism is built into the operational fabric of society
Men can't explain the reasons behind our current wars but they tend to approve (as long as football isnt interrupted)

Beer is the #1 legal drug in usa , it numbs the pain of recoil or something

Any other red flags?

Oh yes, the pickup truck dragging phenomenon,
I'm sure it took a Man to think of that one too.



Hands up everyone who thinks this is normal human behaviour?

May I hazard a guess that it's all contrived?

Our current male dominated society is no more natural to us than wearing our left shoe on our right foot. I think our natural state is, in fact, to be cooperative.

We need to recognize we've been had. We've been born into (and bought, for the most part) a contrived, false culture. It is not our culture. It is the sick, twisted culture of the 'cabalists', the 'Illuminati'... whatever you want to call the small group of nuts who've ruled the planet for quite some time now. They have a whole slew of control systems in place to keep us in check. They've been running the show.

Unless I'm entirely mistaken, no one -- man or woman -- wants to be dominated. The imposed hierarchical system of control that's been foisted upon us all makes the act of dominating others a matter of course.

What happens when you are dominated? Do you feel helpless? Do you get angry? You need an outlet, a way to release your anger. Bars, competitive sports, women diminished -- depicted as sex objects and to be the culturally accepted focus of abuse/domination by men, racism, religions and governments (to blind, bind and control the masses, the illusion of choice)... money (and all forms of trade and barter), greed, dog-eat-dog-world... 'there's never enough to go around' mindset, surviving instead of thriving... It's all to keep us at each others throats, keep us focused on 'absolutes' -- of which there is no such thing -- man/woman, white/black, good/bad etc. so we never stop fighting each other.

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Re: meanwhile....sex talk can help sort us out a bit...

Postby Pris » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:06 am

Old Wolf wrote:Into that space needs be the self love and self acceptance that's lacking in me, others probably understand and embody this instinctively. It's not impossible to recognise and create this but it takes time.

Having said that, it's not the be all and end all of human relationships but just a starting platform from where a relationship can be built. Within the ability to relate with self love is the shared concept of the creation of a space of love owned by neither party. I've recognised how powerful this space can be and often wonder if this is the true conception? That the creation of this shared space is the foundational blueprint for the creation of a fully formed additional life, the real child is the energy shared and the physical incarnation is just the reflection of the power of that energy.


Now you're talking.

Can you imagine yourself being vulnerable, helpless? If so, can you imagine, fiercely (love that word) coming to your own rescue?.. with unconditional love? You deserve it... as do we all.

For me, the need to protect is foremost.
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