yeah.

Instead of asking about the meaning of life.
It's more a question of how can I give my life meaning..

All ponderings about what is real and what is not disappear then.
Thanks fred

With love

Wow, a lot of good commentary here. I love it!

It really does get muddy, doesn't it, this question of what is real. I mean, to someone who is only into what they can touch, feel, hear, smell, and see, it would even seem like a ridiculous question. But what about those of us who can "feel, hear, smell, and even see" things that other's don't? You either accept that you're nuts, or you begin to consider where these questions take you, when trying to explain the many anomalies when considering what is real. The reason this is important to me, in part, is because of the very real, to me anyway, understanding that I am coming to, where truly almost everything we have been taught since day one has to be re-examined.

Our history as taught in the majority of public schools throughout the world is very skewed indeed, with timelines being way off, explanations being forced to fit, and some even totally made up. They teach lots of things as if they are known facts, when in reality (ha ha, there we go again) they are only what we know to date, and by no means the end of the story. But they become entrenched, these ideas about our reality. I could give endless examples. I can remember 35 or so years ago, I was still recovering from my religious indoctrination some, and I can remember even then having discussions about the concepts of evolution as opposed to some omnipotent creator, called God, having created everything in 6 days, for us 6,000 years. Even with all that indoctrination, it was easily discarded, this whole argument. We are created, we do evolve, and yet, to me, we exist beyond all of that too. It was not a popular explanation back then, at least among the people I knew at the time.

I, personally, took a lot of LSD back in the day, which really complicated what I thought of reality. Which is probably why Lazy Man's Guide was so appealing to me, come to think of it. But still, almost any questioning person will eventually have to grapple with this question, because whether we actually get closer to knowing what is real or not, we will, by questioning alone, come to realize the answer is definitely not as concrete as we had been led to believe. But yes, it's a good idea to ground yourself in this reality while you're asking all these questions, regardless of its ultimate realness or not. It's where we are, or at least our consciousness is, and our sense of being in a body, with all that entails is part of the experience. In other words, most of us have to deal with being here, and the daily demands that makes on us just to stay alive here in the physical are all too real for some.

In other words, the suffering of many is certainly experienced in a very real way. There is a reason I have trouble with this statement:

"You cannot in reality hurt or help others without their agreement to play the game, nor can anyone hurt or help you without your agreement. (This concept I am having some trouble with, I admit)"

What comes to mind for me, rather immediately, is this problem of pedophilia at the highest levels of our society who seem to operate with near impunity. It seems be a growing phenomena even. Maybe we do all agree to play the game on some level, but that does not mean that these children should not be protected, or that this should not be eradicated from "this reality". I mean, the above concept is good, up to a point. But spiritual platitudes can actually inhibit our ability to respond appropriately to certain "realities" of this planet. I know also, that whatever you focus on you get more of, so it is a conundrum. Because, we do have to keep a laser focus on this issue to keep the natural tendency to look away from something so horrifying going on right under our noses in so many places it boggles the mind. For me, not being in the thick of where the action is, my only recourse is to not be afraid to publicize and talk honestly about this issue when it does arise. Just because it isn't a favorite topic doesn't mean we can hide from it and it will just go away. In fact, a lot of these good ideas are predicated on a world not run by psychopaths.

Unfortunately, I do not have an answer for this problem, other than in general, I try to continuously increase my awareness of what is really going on in the world from a multifaceted and multidisciplinary level, as well as spending an even greater amount of time focusing on the "lovely, the good, and the expanding", so that I can put most of my daily energy into creating that which I do wish to see in this world.

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It's also a willingness to act and get involved when I do see something in my daily reality experience here that requires my attention. If I see something that others don't see, that is harming someone else, I need to speak up, as do we all. Sometimes, being too kind, too courteous, too controlled, is not a good thing. Sometimes, outrage, anger, and decisive action are needed. I guess it's all in knowing and assessing each situation as best we can, and learning from observing what works and what doesn't.

Fred Steeves wrote:A good counter balance to philosophic ponderings, is practicality. And a good counter balance question to "what is real?", would be "is it useful?"

Good, Fred. You are right, it's important to ask the right question. In my opinion, the right question is not "Is it real?" or "Is it useful?" The right question is: "Is it right?"

"Right" has broad meaning. It can mean "correct", "true", and "real", but can also mean "proper", "moral", and "just". By asking all these other questions, we are essentially trying to determine what is right.

The answer to "Is it right?" is always subjective. It can be argued that subjectivity can be illusory, because it is not objective. It can be argued that objectivity does not exist, and that reality is thus an illusion. Everything can be argued, because everything is subjective.

That's why I believe that ultimately, we are obliged to take a position of uncertainty -- "I don't really know, but my current belief is..." Thus, we have to justify our beliefs. We have to place them in public view and expose them to all critiques. Online forums are great places to do this, when there is freedom of speech. When there is not freedom of speech, online forums become just another control structure in the hands of sociopaths.

Is that real? Is that useful? Is that right?

Spirtwind writes

(What comes to mind for me, rather immediately, is this problem of pedophilia at the highest levels of our society who seem to operate with near impunity. It seems be a growing phenomena even. Maybe we do all agree to play the game on some level, but that does not mean that these children should not be protected, or that this should not be eradicated from "this reality". I mean, the above concept is good, up to a point. But spiritual platitudes can actually inhibit our ability to respond appropriately to certain "realities" of this planet. I know also, that whatever you focus on you get more of, so it is a conundrum. Because, we do have to keep a laser focus on this issue to keep the natural tendency to look away from something so horrifying going on right under our noses in so many places it boggles the mind. For me, not being in the thick of where the action is, my only recourse is to not be afraid to publicize and talk honestly about this issue when it does arise. Just because it isn't a favorite topic doesn't mean we can hide from it and it will just go away. In fact, a lot of these good ideas are predicated on a world not run by psychopaths.)


No matter the size or shape of the light>>>keeping it lit is the key..

What you have written is true for me too and often mind boggling to grok..."I agreed to participating and or allowing this to happen to me " !! ....I can only comprehend it from my thought that I made the contract while in Spirit. It is like the psychopath, pedophile, etc., agreeing by contract ahead of time to play this role for others to learn in becoming 'masterful in their BEING'..........I don't think that Spirit starts out all knowing either and has evolving events to work through amongst the levels of Soul maturation. This is the way I have come to terms with some of the disgusting and hurtful dynamics we humans endure and deal with (inner and outer) as we evolve; without caving in or giving up.

Recognition, acceptance of the dynamics (not turning away from the ugly stuff) and then problem solving is what is happening right now IMO........I can't remember so much open talk about pedophilia or sociopaths, psychopaths, etc. as of this last year and it is not going away..........we are not letting the darkness of it overwhelm us anymore and we are working to shine light daily on the devastation this behavior brings to the world overall. These specific behaviours for sure have been kept sequestered and secreted for eons and we are really at the early stages of not allowing this secrecy and sickness to continue unabated. I won't see it fully healed in my life time I don't think, but I do take solace that we are on the right path and in the process of gaining strength to eventually eradicate it and the offenders.

The so called *REALNESS* of MACHO and PATRIARICHAL dominance is being shattered and with that many occult and secret practices are being outed for what they are and represent under the veil of charitable works. Leadership minions in all realms are being investigated more and more and those with reputable intentions noted and those with less than that vilified!!

We are waking up, slowly but surely and more are realizing that it does start with self and personal responsibilty. The era of personal change is upon us I think and with that we are going to see greater turmoil as that is what transition brings during the process IMO. Bring it on I say.

Chicodoodoo wrote:
"Right" has broad meaning. It can mean "correct", "true", and "real", but can also mean "proper", "moral", and "just". By asking all these other questions, we are essentially trying to determine what is right.

Wrong..

Right is always, always one side of a double edged sword and implies that there is a wrong as well.
Now call me a woo woo new age hippie freak, but.

No amount of dichotomy will ever get us past it.
Discerning what is right will keep the divide and conquer strategists leaning back and continuing with their plans..

So what is the question we should ask to get past the diversion and towards unity?
Not that unity is right, but possibly preferable and worth a shot after all these years.

With Love

Eelco wrote:

Chicodoodoo wrote: "Right" has broad meaning. It can mean "correct", "true", and "real", but can also mean "proper", "moral", and "just". By asking all these other questions, we are essentially trying to determine what is right.

Wrong..

Right is always, always one side of a double edged sword and implies that there is a wrong as well.

That's right, but it doesn't make my statement wrong. "Wrong" has broad meaning. It can mean "incorrect", "untrue", and "not real", but can also mean "improper", "immoral", and "unjust". But once again, by asking all these other questions, we are essentially trying to determine what is wrong, and by implication, what is right.

Eelco wrote:Discerning what is right will keep the divide and conquer strategists leaning back and continuing with their plans..

No. They will continue to do that regardless. They have their sociopathic version of right and wrong, which is very different from an empathic version of what is right and wrong. That gulf will always exist, and there is no "uniting" it, because those versions are fundamentally incompatible.

Eelco wrote:So what is the question we should ask to get past the diversion and towards unity?
Not that unity is right, but possibly preferable and worth a shot after all these years.

How about "What is the truth?" Divide and conquer works because we don't know the truth. We don't know what is right, as in "correct", "true", and "real". You are implying that simply asking why we are divided is the source of our division. It is not. We are divided because we are manipulated into believing things that aren't true.

Unity is not the real goal. People can be united behind a lie and do wrong, as in "weapons of mass destruction" and the Iraq War. We need people to be united behind the truth and do right. But first they need the truth. With the truth, uniting will happen naturally.

Sandy Clark wrote:Spirtwind writes

(What comes to mind for me, rather immediately, is this problem of pedophilia at the highest levels of our society who seem to operate with near impunity. It seems be a growing phenomena even. Maybe we do all agree to play the game on some level, but that does not mean that these children should not be protected, or that this should not be eradicated from "this reality". I mean, the above concept is good, up to a point. But spiritual platitudes can actually inhibit our ability to respond appropriately to certain "realities" of this planet. I know also, that whatever you focus on you get more of, so it is a conundrum. Because, we do have to keep a laser focus on this issue to keep the natural tendency to look away from something so horrifying going on right under our noses in so many places it boggles the mind. For me, not being in the thick of where the action is, my only recourse is to not be afraid to publicize and talk honestly about this issue when it does arise. Just because it isn't a favorite topic doesn't mean we can hide from it and it will just go away. In fact, a lot of these good ideas are predicated on a world not run by psychopaths.)


No matter the size or shape of the light>>>keeping it lit is the key..

What you have written is true for me too and often mind boggling to grok..."I agreed to participating and or allowing this to happen to me " !! ....I can only comprehend it from my thought that I made the contract while in Spirit. It is like the psychopath, pedophile, etc., agreeing by contract ahead of time to play this role for others to learn in becoming 'masterful in their BEING'..........I don't think that Spirit starts out all knowing either and has evolving events to work through amongst the levels of Soul maturation. This is the way I have come to terms with some of the disgusting and hurtful dynamics we humans endure and deal with (inner and outer) as we evolve; without caving in or giving up.

Recognition, acceptance of the dynamics (not turning away from the ugly stuff) and then problem solving is what is happening right now IMO........I can't remember so much open talk about pedophilia or sociopaths, psychopaths, etc. as of this last year and it is not going away..........we are not letting the darkness of it overwhelm us anymore and we are working to shine light daily on the devastation this behavior brings to the world overall. These specific behaviours for sure have been kept sequestered and secreted for eons and we are really at the early stages of not allowing this secrecy and sickness to continue unabated. I won't see it fully healed in my life time I don't think, but I do take solace that we are on the right path and in the process of gaining strength to eventually eradicate it and the offenders.

The so called *REALNESS* of MACHO and PATRIARICHAL dominance is being shattered and with that many occult and secret practices are being outed for what they are and represent under the veil of charitable works. Leadership minions in all realms are being investigated more and more and those with reputable intentions noted and those with less than that vilified!!

We are waking up, slowly but surely and more are realizing that it does start with self and personal responsibilty. The era of personal change is upon us I think and with that we are going to see greater turmoil as that is what transition brings during the process IMO. Bring it on I say.

I think that there is very serious very terrible behavior that humans do. It is possible to be aware of the bad but LIVE in the good. How?
In my experienceabuse is often perpetrated by those close to us.
The most common response may be to adopt the same kind of behavior and pass it on.
Don't pass it on. Don't be that small twisted and bitter punisher who will get back at SOMEONE for the pain and hurt recalled.

In my experience adopting really bad behavior creates the sense that everyone is also doing the same and reinforces the perpetration.
Paranoia also calls proof and conviction for what is feared to view.
THAT is a mystery of "woowoo".
This world is a very strange landscape that has such variability that one will see the very worst and the best in one scene.

I still think that if we EACH who have a clue (some are still incapable of any reasoning... and supposedly suffering will eventually wake them?) adopted the golden rule and EACH PRACTICED it, EVERY DAY and every way... what would we observe then? Only practice will demonstrate and it won't help to pretend we have done what we have not done...so no pretense!!

What if each of us constantly looked for evidence of goodness and sanity and talked it up, supported it with our energy and copied it? Have we exhausted testing such pronoic imbalance to see how it rewires our perceiving mechanism? And according to quantum science the observer then translates what is observed to particulars of experience? And what can be wired in as familiar pathways in the neurology can be rewired. What can be experienced can be changed IMO... in MY experience.

Is this real?? Don't say No unless you have tested with your own material IMO...
[youtube]https://youtu.be/DSnH1zUAITY[/youtube]

>>>Love it Maggie

Chicodoodoo wrote: we are essentially trying to determine what is wrong, and by implication, what is right.

No we were trying to determine what is real, from there fred opted to instead ask what is useful.
I added to instead look at what can you do to give meaning to live(from the premise everything is an illusion anyway)
Then you brought in the idea of looking at what's right.

Our little sidetrack here has already shown that that question. Is open to so much interpretation that It's meaningless for any real purpose.

Chicodoodoo wrote: No. They will continue to do that regardless. They have their sociopathic version of right and wrong, which is very different from an empathic version of what is right and wrong. That gulf will always exist, and there is no "uniting" it, because those versions are fundamentally incompatible.

This is where we have a difference in opinion

Chicodoodoo wrote: How about "What is the truth?" Divide and conquer works because we don't know the truth. We don't know what is right, as in "correct", "true", and "real". You are implying that simply asking why we are divided is the source of our division. It is not. We are divided because we are manipulated into believing things that aren't true.

Here we also differ..

Chicodoodoo wrote: Unity is not the real goal. People can be united behind a lie and do wrong, as in "weapons of mass destruction" and the Iraq War. We need people to be united behind the truth and do right. But first they need the truth. With the truth, uniting will happen naturally.

And here, although I may come to start imagining that we just tackle the same problem from opposite directions.

What is Real? is the question, What is right or what is wrong are just concepts created by a perceived notion of a man or woman. As Eelco stated the very notion of what is right causes the the notion that something is wrong and this leads into the circular idea of a cat chasing its own tail.

Chicodoodoo, you seem to contradict yourself with this statement, "Unity is not the real goal. People can be united behind a lie and do wrong, as in "weapons of mass destruction" and the Iraq War. WE NEED PEOPLE TO BE UNITED BEHIND THE TRUTH AND DO RIGHT. But first they need the truth. With the truth, uniting will happen naturally."

So first you say Unity is not the real goal but then you say that people need to be united behind the truth and do right. So I ask If Unity is not the goal then why do people need to Unite behind some fictitious truth? Who's truth is it? In a world of elusive reality is truth not just more elusive? So then is it your perception of truth that we must all Unite to or is it some other human's perception of truth that we should all Unite to. These questions can run around the rosy all day so what it might then come to is how one can brainwash others into believing their perception of truth and then unite them in His or her cause to do a perceived right or even wrong as the two words are so closely connected and cannot be separated.

What is Real? What is Truth? What is unity? What is Right, What is wrong? Can you answer these questions within your own self with satisfaction to live within your own reality?

Steven